When you’re trying to sell a product or service, there’s storytelling occurring there (or at least there should be).
But how do you know your stories are working and truly reaching your audience?
In this episode, you’ll learn:
- The three different types of stories that are told in business storytelling
- The importance of stories in the business setting
- Ways to make your stories better
- How to tell if something isn’t working about your current story
- Getting Content Buy-In From Your Legal Team [Kerry O’Shea Gorgone’s podcast episode]
- Let Stories Do the Heavy Lifting: StoryLeader Creator Chris Brogan on Marketing Smarts [podcast]
- People Need Brevity in Stories in 2020 and Beyond [blog post]
- Mark Fisher Fitness
- StudioPress themes
- Saddleback Leather
Amanda: This is one of those episodes where I feel truly humbled to be talking to someone I heard about probably immediately when I got into the industry, he's helped huge companies like Disney and Microsoft with their marketing efforts, he's a fantastic keynote speaker and is best-selling author of nine books. I think you're working on a 10th? Chris Brogan, thank you so much for being on the show.
Chris: Amanda, thanks for having me. By the way, all the other guests on your podcast, you should realize what she just said, which is you weren't that interesting, but now we have Brogan. So, now it's woah.
Chris: Me and Godin or somebody. Okay, I get it. I'm happy to be here.
Amanda: I'm so glad you're here. And you know, Kerry O'Shea Gorgone who was previous guest, specifically recommended you. Obviously, like, aside from the fact that you're a well-respected marketer, but also because of your leadership training program story leader, and the more that I read about it, I realized what a perfect fit for the show it was. So, I'm really excited to talk about it. And I figured that a good way to start was for you to just kind of give an overview.
Chris: I'm thrilled to do that. Thank you. And Kerry is just the superheroest person in the world.
Amanda: She's so cool. She was so much fun to talk to.
Chris: Yes. And she's smart and witty and gives a great interview and she's one of my top five favorite interviewers, because she does a lot of homework, which I don't do when I interview people. I just talk to them but she's like really good. She like you know, "I heard in sixth grade, you broke your collarbone and like you missed a few months.", and I was like, "What, how did you--?". So, I made a project called Story Leader, which is kind of what I'm out there selling these days, which is basically how do I teach business storytelling for internal uses for like leadership development? Because what I find is that, we all hear that storytelling matters, and you hear it endlessly in marketing and content marketing, and especially in an organic growth company, you know, content and stories are the story. But what I also wanted to do, I've been doing that with marketing for a while, I wanted to show leadership, how a story is so important because what happens with leadership is, or what happens sort of in the world at large, it seems lately is that, there's a lot of presumption, there's kind of like a, "Well, I just said this thing, you know what to do, and no one knows what to do.". And so, I figure that storytelling done right, business storytelling, not like you know, you don't put on like Shaman's robe, and like light sage and have everyone sit around and sip wine. It's like fast and easy interactions. It's not like, you know, "Once upon a time...", it's say, you know, the kind of people who work here are the kind of people that want to help our customer really look like the superhero. So, we don't have to worry if we're the superhero, we have to be Yoda to their Princess Leia and Luke Skywalker, right? That's what the story is, right? So, you walk away from that thinking, "Oh, okay, I kind of get it.".
There's a little pizza place across the street, one of the drivers, anytime I've ever ordered from them over the last 14 years, has come over here and not had a pen, like to sign for the credit card. And all I keep thinking is, "How many times can you not have a pen?". Like, if I order a pizza, like once every couple of weeks, maybe once every three weeks, you know how it can be, right? He's zero times had a pen, and I'm like, "I get that every now and again someone steals your pens, but you only have like three jobs as a delivery person at a pizza place, a pen, some change and don't tip my food over all over the place.". And so, in story leader world, I would teach the pizza company, I would even make them change their website around to say "Our drivers carry pens". You know, if you think about it, Amanda, what do we want, right? I don't care that they have a calzone, every pizza place has a calzone, right? Basically, the way they make it most times is fold a pizza in half with crap in the middle. Like, that's not the story. The story is, you know, we are going to get it to you when we say we're going to get it to you, or this is going to be so hot, you're never ever going to complain about that, or whatever it is. But I want the story inside to be so understood by other employees that they walk away not having to ask the boss, "What did you mean when you said this?". Like, I want everyone to kind of have the story around the data, and the story that helps them make better decisions and reduce friction, and that's why I launched it
Amanda: Makes total sense. I feel like it would save a lot of time too when everybody's aligned in that way, rather than having to explain over and over or correct mistakes.
Chris: I mean, let's say you're the kind of agency that learns how to create data journalism, like this company I know. You know, a really good infographic or a really awesome map, that's a story at a glance, right? And this is how good things get sold, and so, my big goal is to teach companies how to use that same external kind of stuff, internally as well.
Amanda: Yeah. And for anybody who doesn't already listen to the Marketing Smarts Podcast, definitely check out the episode with Chris, Kerry interviews him, so he's already spoken to her interview about the skills, dives more into the leadership side of this, which is really fascinating. And Chris, like I was saying, before the show, I'd love to get into, I feel like a lot of this has to apply to multiple types of communication, right? Aligning people around a story, being able to tell that story in an effective way. And on this show, we try to help people tell those stories either to their leadership when they're trying to get by and/or people who are trying to get you know more clients and customers and convey their story like you're talking about, so it's still relevant to that vision. In that regard, do people make similar mistakes across those types of communication? Or do you see that there are distinct issues for those different purposes?
Chris: So, I just read this article yesterday that starts off with this letter talking about how times have changed, and everything's fast paced, and we're all crazy now and blah, blah, blah. And it turns out it was copied, or an article or something from like the 1800's. And it reads exactly like it was written today. And it just was like, "Woah, you know, things sure are crazy.". And when I read that, you know, it does the opposite of making me feel bad, I feel like, "Yeah, but it's even more true.". Like, in the 1800's, they were probably like, "I don't know about these ballpoint pens, like it's going to ruin things.". But our attention spans are shorter, brevity matters. Like, I was just explaining this to someone, if you take any old TV show, or even a Netflix, you know, TV show, not movie, and you turn your head away from the screen, but watch the wall kind of flicker at night time, you count the changes in which camera was used and when, right? So, if there's like multiple camera angles in the scene, you count how often those change and it is crazy now that most modern television has as many as 60 camera changes or 60 scene cuts in somewhere and other per minute, which means one a second, and it's heading towards almost two second now. Meaning, we can't even let our eyes sit still in our current entertainment. So, if this is true, then what?
So, how do you tell your story better? Number one, brevity, number two, you can't make everything, you know, beige, you can't try to reach and appeal to everybody anymore. You have to be really specific, you know, strangely restaurants in the US, because of things like Doordash are going through this experience where a big menu is no longer a good idea. Multitudes of restaurants are closing, because they're trying to be everything to everyone, and the ones that are living are the ones that have one-page menus. And so, it's all kind of pointing towards the same sort of a thing of like, we've really got to tighten up how we talk about things. We've really got to tighten up to whom we talk those things through and whatever. And we have to really be kind of clear on just getting one point across at a time, and not trying to give everyone the kitchen sink approach of communication. Well, that's all communication, it's not marketing, it's not sales, it's not leadership. So, anytime anyone's lips are moving, or anytime someone's got a pen, or even if you're texting somebody, so, it's a matter.
Amanda: I saw where you wrote a post recently about brevity, which I loved because you had really actionable tips for how people can actually accomplish that, including that one idea for interaction thing, which I think a lot of people, even through your email you see that go, you ask two things, and one of the things will definitely not get addressed, because you're not straightforward enough, I think we can all relate to that. And I love this concept of brevity. But I think sometimes it's tricky to figure out what to cut out. Like, if somebody's trying to pitch like a whole strategy for something to somebody, like maybe some leadership, not in marketing, right? Like, how do you call down this big idea for somebody when we're trying to explain it to them?
Chris: So, always trying to suss out what's the absolutely most important thing you need to know note sometimes. So, let's make up a leadership scenario, your agency is going to buy another agency so, you're going to acquire these 11 people, I'm sure they're great, whatever, some of them are going to work remotely, some of them are coming to the mother ship, and we've really got to kind of learn how to merge the culture. Well, so the story line might be, you know, anytime you acquire a company, we have to kind of figure out what the new set point is on culture. But it's not fair that we're the, you know, as the acquirer, it's not like we could be just a conquering people, we have to treat these people, like they're a part of the process, and we're all going to learn some new music together. They're not joining Metallica; we're making a super band. And so, even that, that's a story done, we're done. So, then you could say, now let's talk about what that really means. Let's talk about what that really looks like, let's give examples of concrete around that. You know, if you start a sentence with, "Well, our way has been...", then you've already done it wrong. You know, start with a question, "What's a better way first to go after this?", you know, questions are better than statements in this case. Don't be weird. Don't be like, you know, wishy washy, if you know the better way to do it then say, "I think this is a good approach. What do you guys think?". But it can't be territory, right? So, that's that.
So, the business storytelling of it, if I kind of circle back on my quick in the moment thing of you know, you're not turning Metallica, you know, it's easy to kind of get that without having to go through a whole bunch of story line. It's easy to say, "Yeah, yes, I could see if I were joining some intellectual property versus being invited to make it with some other group of people.". I'm going to know better how to think about that. But by labeling it, like let's say nobody is a big Metallica fan like me so, you have to say instead, "Alright, last season, the Game of Thrones stunk. How do we make the next season of Game of Thrones?", right? So, everyone will get that, you know, and you can say, you know, "This isn't the D&D guys, this you know, has to hit a new audience now.", or whatever, like, we get that and so, what we're trying to do is not so much like a a blend of pop culture reference, but it's that sense of, "Can we all sort of get what we're all talking about here? So, that none of us have to stop and explain anything, we can actually get to the important part instead of eat so many calories doing the other part.".
Amanda: Yeah, it's the same concept, but you're just using metaphors or make it as accessible, as quickly as possible.
Chris: Sure. And then there's just so many other ways. So, to me, there's three different types of stories that can be told in business storytelling. There's mission stories, which is any kind of a story that kind of recreates or strengthens in any way, the mission of the work that's trying to be done, right? So, a mission story could be, well for my pizza place, "Our mission is to get these people their food without them having to think about anything, here's the food, they can put it in their belly now.", right? That's a good mission. The second kind of story are belonging stories. I'm the kind of person who, you know, so belonging story is, "Oh, we're totally your type over here.". My friend Mark Fisher runs a gym in New York City called Mark Fisher fitness, and he made it because he was like, a New York actor and a kind of guy who likes to stage things and all that. And when he'd go to a meathead gym, there's a bunch of people smashing weights around, and he wanted to make a gym where people who weren't necessarily gym rats would go and get really buff, but have so much fun doing it in like a crazy setting. So, people there wear like unicorn hats and sparkles and, you know, wigs, and it's way more fun than any gym you'll ever go to. Gym members are called ninjas, and I think they call their thing the secret lair or something. So, it's like that. So, that's a belonging story. You know, you want to belong to that, right? That's so fun for some people.
And then the third kind of story is growth stories and growth stories like all motivational speakers are telling growth stories, you know, "Learn how my granddad did this thing on the farm and it'll change your life.", that's a growth story. And also, growth stories are like, correctional stories like, "You're a piece of shh-- you know, bring a stupid pen you ass.". You know, I would love to tell that kid a growth story, you know. "If you had pens, everybody who you deliver to, might offer you a better job than delivery guy, which is why you've had the same dumb job for so many years. Because if you can't even remember a pen, why would we ever trust you with a real company?", not that I'm better.
Amanda: Now I'm dying to see like this interaction, it's inevitably going to happen.
Chris: Every single time. You know, I live in this factory building and I live like way down this hallway, and by the time I press the buzzer to let them in and have to go up the elevator and stuff, I'm standing in the hallway, like a dad waiting for his kid to come home from a date, and not happy about it. And so, I'm standing there and if that kid is the kid down the hall, he'll say it from like, 55 feet away now, "I totally forgot to pen.". I said, "Oh, Zach, because this is a day ending and why?", and then I said, "I have four in my pocket, because I knew it's you.".
Amanda: Oh, my God, that's too much. But, so--
Chris: But there's storytelling, right Amanda? You know, just to cap that off and have people wonder why we had this conversation, there's reason behind that, because this is what makes businesses and if the forgetting pen guy is my impression of a company that I've purchased food from, for like, years, well, I didn't buy my lunch from them today. You know why? Because I didn't want to deal with pen guy. So, that's how it gets done.
Amanda: It's interesting to hear when you give these examples of stories, because I feel like sometimes that can be overwhelming for people to hear, like, everyone's heard, like the concept of storytelling, but, you know, what's our story? Like, it's a whole narrative, it's a whole thing, but sometimes a story can be pretty straightforward. Like, you've been able to sum it up with like a few words, right? Like, the story is we have pens, like you can develop that but coming up with that initial concept doesn't have to be like, you know, a very involved concept. The hard part is just the differentiator, would that be true?
Chris: So, this weird thing happens when people create, I was going to say when people write but let's keep it a little more vague, but I'll go back to writing. When people write stuff, they tend to write as if they're like, going to be sending this into a Professor, or that they're worried that if another human views this, they're going to judge your entire moral fabric, your entire educational history, you know, the color of your shoes and everything based on this thing you wrote. And so, we put like all this stuff into it, we use our 55 cent words, like it gets crazy. And I think that it's, I'll be really honest, so, I'm a big, philosophical fan of Buddhism, I think that there's so much to learn in it. And one of the things I learned is if I don't care what anyone thinks about my writing, I write better. And so, if I get that out of the way, that I don't have to worry that someone thinks I'm smart or not, I just have to worry that someone gets something from what I've done. And I think that what gets us so messed up in creating or writing or telling a story is one, we think that we have to explain a lot of things to get to the part we want to talk about and two, we think that we have to say it in like, the most like bombastic way or the largest way or maybe even just sort of like, the way that adds the most meaning and gravitas to it. But every now and again, you know, a sandwich is a sandwich, right? Like, every meal doesn't have to be something that a chef would give you, sometimes you just wanted a stupid sandwich.
And so, I think that being someone who lives in the skeleton of an old factory, and being someone who helps companies try to figure out what they want to be when they grow up again, my job is to say, "Look, we don't have to get fancy with this. We can wear work boots to work and still tell the story.". You've got to just get to the part that helps somebody because no one's waiting for the other parts Amanda, no one's waiting for the super clever turn of phrase. They're waiting for something that makes us feel like we, you know, can identify with it.
Amanda: Yeah, I think I've seen that a lot in advertising, even the way that brands are positioning themselves in this kind of like, grandiose or really intense way. At the end of the day, it's like you said, it's like it's a sandwich and it almost feels like inauthentic. Like, why are you saying this to me? I don't understand like, what are you trying to pull? That's the impression that, at least I've gotten when I see some of this stuff, so, I totally see what you're saying. How can a marketer or a brand, figure out that their story is off? Are there signs that something's going wrong in particular?
Chris: I like that question a lot. Oh, my gosh, I have such a name drop for this. So, in 2008, by total random silliness, I get invited to GM's headquarters, it was from a tweet. And I tweeted, "If I think the new Cadillac CTS looks kind of sexy, does that make me an old man?", and like, almost 200 people responded instantly. Because it was the old days of Twitter, we had nothing to do, we all liked to tweet with each other and not like wait for the Kardashians to talk. So, 200 people responded pretty much, and 2 people said, "Yes, you look like an old man.". Everyone else said, "No, that car is cool.". And so, the guy who was like head of social at GM, this is the old days of social said, "Oh, it's kind of cool. I could give you a test drive.". I was like, "I can get a test drive. I just go over to Cadillac, and they'll let me drive it.", he goes, "Oh, would you like to ride in the car with the guy who made the car?". I was like, "Well, that's kind of cool.". So, I went to GM. So, this is a really long backstory to the story. So, they set up this whole day at GM for me, which an idiot blogger who tweeted something should not have been invited to, but they didn't know at the time Amanda. So, the ending part of the day they got this guy, Chris, who's done all these things goes, "Hey, I've been working on this all day and I just finally got the approval, would you like to go meet Fritz?". Now, the smartest part of my brain which was completely animalistic, I didn't even know what I was saying said, "Yes, absolutely.". What I was thinking honestly was, "Fritz, who?", he was the chairman. And he was only kind of like there a little while, which is why I didn't know his name. And he's also technically in history, the guy that like Obama let go when GM had the bailout from the government, but that's not his fault. It really wasn't, he was a really good guy.
Fritz Henderson brings me in his office. He says, "Listen, I know what blogging is. I know that you're like some Twitter guy or something.", that was like so demeaning, but anyway, he says, "What I don't get is my CMO says everything's going great. My CFO says, not so much.". And I said, "Oh, I can show you something.". And I went to search.twitter.com, and I typed in Chevy sucks, Chevy trucks suck, GM sucks, everything sucks, I just put the word sucks next to anything I could think of. And I showed him human response to what people thought of his cars and stuff, and his face changed a few colors, he looked sad, a little bit. He was like, "Wow, that's not what my CMO shows me.", and I said, "I know because your CMO is paid to tell you that everything's great.". So, if I were to tell you the real answer, which will make a lot of your marketing customers unhappy, how would you know whether or not your story is off? Ask the CFO. Because if it's working, then everyone's really happy, and you still get to keep bags of money. If you're having budget conversations, then there's nothing wrong with your story, and not that there's not budget conversations every day, but if every single conversation is like a fight over some more budget, it's because no one feels like they're getting what they're paying for already. And so what has to happen, of course, there's always mechanical reasons to this, but the real in my belly feeling, and you can sort of point it out with numbers that you could ask a CFO to validate it, is that if things were working, then stories do the heavy lifting for you. And all you have to do is facilitate that story, the job of marketers is to develop and build the marketplace, which is the transactions that occur that deliver the product. And so, to me, the story is the exciting part that gets us to the marketplace, and it's the minute after that, what do people do that shows whether or not you've done what you should have done before.
Amanda: I love that. That was such a great illustration of how that problem can arise and how to identify it. Hey, I actually want to backtrack a little bit because when you said that, once you've identified that problem, and so you've discovered kind of what that differentiator should be or what you're missing from your strategy, that it's better to ask questions, right? To get that better story. And you even mentioned, I think this might have been in your interview with Kerry that, "What does it look like?", is a good question to ask. Can you speak to other questions that might be valuable in that way? And what the power of those questions are like, why are they so helpful?
Chris: You know, marketers make the mistake, I thinking their job is to talk. Their job, again, is to build a marketplace and to get people to buy. Well, a lot of times it's listening, right? A lot of times it's understanding what someone said they wanted. You know, let me tell you the weird side of that GM story. I talked about how sexy the Cadillac is, you know what they offered me for a job? They said, "Hey, would you like to help us promote Buick?". And I said, "No.", they were like, "Well, come on, you know, you just went to the headquarters. You're like, lifelong GM owner.". I said, "I know. I want to promote Cadillac.". That's like, I just got done talking about it. So, there's questions to answer and there's like different questions for different kinds of projects, and whatever. But like, for instance, "What does it look like?", is a great question. Another great question, I always think is, "What does someone need to feel?", you know, and people hate touchy feely things, right? But what does someone need to feel when they bought the thing? So, you know, for my WordPress website, I use these themes by this company that is now part of WP engine called StudioPress and StudioPress themes everybody's like, "Why do you pick them?", and I'm like, "Because I just push a button, and my website looks the way I want it to look with almost nothing done to it. I just go click, click, and then the site looks the way I want it to look. And why would I bother spending, you know, thousands and or days rebuilding a site, if I can click and just change my site at whim, after I've done the original work?". Well, listen to that story, right? So, what do I want to feel? I want to feel like I get like professional website design, you know, for having just bought a fistful of templates, right? Every web designer in the world hates me right now. I just know, I get it.
But then there's the other side of that story because that's what I want to feel because I don't care. Someone else wants, "I want my site to look like no one's site ever in the history of websites.". Well, that's a whole different thing, right? So, you have to think through, you know, what does somebody want to feel? What are they going to value the most? And how does that line up with what you're selling, right? So, there's a company, I was just talking to the guy who runs this company called Saddleback leathers, he makes these incredible leather bags, like backpacks, and, you know, business bags and that sort of a thing, and they're made out of leather, and they're made to last generationally. So, in the old days, at least, I haven't been to his site lately, in the old days, it was all about like, "This is the kind of bag you're going to give your grandkid, and they're going to love it because you've had it for so long.", and all that. That sentence makes you think in this world of disposable, you know, bags, why would we ever want something besides this incredible legend, you know, legacy piece. However, if you're a vegan, you don't want that bag, right? Like, there's like, you just keep thinking through like, what's the person going to want the most? So, that's another good question. Another one, is there are super-fast, super easy, you know, tell it to me like I'm six years old, which I call the Ken Hedge question, because he's the professor who taught me that, you know. Is there a tell it to me like I'm six years old version of this? Everyone loves to complicate the thing they're selling. A lot of times, it's not that important. I used to have my old business, human business works, I used to call it Tools and Smarts for Small Businesses. I sold tools, and I sold smarts, it's easy. Those two words mean something. So, to me, it's about that. So, that's what I'm working on.
Amanda: How do you want people to feel questions seems like it gets right to your previous point about being more specific. Because if you're thinking in general terms, like you're trying to meet everybody's requirements, you're never going to get there. But if you're targeting it, like, "Oh, we want them to feel this way.", and you realize that not everybody will but those are the right people that ties that together perfectly.
Chris: Yeah, I mean, if I manage a data center, then I want you to know that you're never going to have to call your boss and say, "We screwed up.". You know, this software just fixed the, "We screwed up phone call.", you know, if I sell, you know, transportation of some kind then, I have to tell the story of what kind of thing I'm selling, you know. I sell, you know what looks like a rugged classic in a modern package or whatever it is, you know, so, the thing you're selling, you know, there has to be some sort of sense of, "I'm the kind of person who..", right? And the one thing that we get a little wrong in that, is that we really overcomplicate it, we add way too many words, and a lot of times, we are not brave enough to really distill and isolate something.
And by the way, you could be one thing to lots of different people. Microsoft gaming, last year, I had like five different really distinct, but using the same exact phrase, things going on. And one of them was to promote women developers, one was to promote more ethnic diversity in video game design, and the third was for people with different physical abilities to be able to game right alongside physically normative people. And so, let's use those three, I can't remember the other two, the story was all the same, and it was around Microsoft gaming's biggest point, which was that, you know, "We're all gamers here.". And so, that became a big powerful story line.
Amanda: Yeah, that's really poignant. So, the question I usually ask at the end of these episodes, I think you've answered many times already, I'll ask in case there's something missing, which is, what do you think is the biggest mistake that people make when they're trying to make the case for something? So, you know, we can say that they go on for too long or they're being too general, are there any other things that you think are the most common or the most egregious?
Chris: I'm going to give you like, a super straightforward answer, and it's going to be so many people roll their eyes so, eye roll incoming in 3, 2, 1. Really, at the bottom of all emotions are only two emotions, fear and love, right? When we eat something in our belly, we go, "My belly feels good right now.", that's love, right? When we think, "I think my significant other is upset with me.", we think what if they're going to leave us because of this, and that's fear, right? You know, these are what drive all of our primal interactions and everything that we build up intellectually, religiously, historically, and all that, lays on top of just fear and love. And I think that the biggest mistake people make endlessly, is they create and generate and communicate and everything else they do out of fear, and not out of love. Not out of trust, not out of the sense that maybe we can all kind of do this together, always out of fear. You know, legal documents have so many words because of fear. You know, the legal example of, if somebody legal sends you a letter and they're mad at you, they'll send you like one page. And if you don't answer them, they send you like 30 pages, because they're like, "Now we're going to get really legal.", which I guess means more words, right? That's fear. And so, love is, "Can I say this brief? Can I accept that we're all going to get there at the same time? Can you trust me that we're going to be doing the same thing?". And I know that's an eye roll answer, but I can show you how to implement that like 85 different ways practically in revenue generating ways. So, that's my answer.
Amanda: That's a great answer. It's not something I've heard. But I mean, fundamentally, it is all about emotion. I mean, anything that we do in marketing, so it makes sense. So, that would be one of the things that people mess up on a lot.
Chris: Anytime that people think of, you know, when I say, fear and love is emotion, "Is this creature going to eat me dead?". I mean, I guess you could call it an emotion, but your death is a very physical and permanent experience. So, I always think of it as a lot more visceral. You know, I think it's, you know, if I don't eat that, I'm in fear, right? So, I think that, you know, we could tie it to our blood and our bones if we want.
Amanda: Yeah, absolutely. So, knowing the objective of the show, who do you recommend to be guests on future episodes?
Chris: Who should be a guest on a future episode? Dexter Patterson is an interesting guy. He's a person who is out there talking about creative ways to communicate, creative ways to connect, help people see things a different way and he doesn't get a whole lot of you know, I mean, Chris Brogan, my gosh, if you Google Chris Brogan interview, you're going to hate yourself. It's like an entire wing of the Library of Congress, you know. But, you know, Dexter just came right to mind just because I'd like to hear more from him, from smart people like you, Amanda. I think that there's Mitch Joel up in Montreal, I think there's never enough Mitch in the world. He's an underrated, super, legendary guy. He like, speaks on stages with guys like, Bill Clinton, and yet still hangs out at weird little events like I run, like pod camps. So, he's a good guy to know. I don't know if you've done Ann Panley before, you did Kerry, so I can't recommend Kerry. I think that there's just some incredible people doing smart things out there. Oh, you know, she goes by Goldie Cylon online and she would be swell, because she has a very new take as it comes specifically to making video and that sort of thing. Goldie Chan, C-H-A-N, she-- I was totally blanking on her stupid last name because of her Instagram name. Goldie Chan does all kinds of internet video stuff, how to use, you know, purpose. So, she'd be a swell one. And she's somebody that Kerry and I both know. Amber Osborne, there's a lot of people out there, I think who are up and comers, which would be a lot more fun, in my mind, to see what's this new millennial age telling us that we don't know yet.
Amanda: Well, that's why I love asking this question because it's people I don't know. And other people have insights into what awesome things are going on in the industry that I wouldn't have access to. So, I appreciate the recommendations.
Chris: Thank you.
Amanda: So, Chris, it's been a pleasure meeting you and speaking with you. I think you've given me a lot to think about. So, I think it'll be really valuable to listeners, and I really appreciate you taking the time.
Chris: I'm really grateful. Thanks for letting me wander around inside all these thoughts and hopefully someone comes out going, "Hmm, that made sense.".