The Underrated Benefits of Top-of-the-Funnel Content [Podcast Episode]

Top-of-the-funnel content (or awareness content) can be an easy and effective way to grow traffic, and is extremely beneficial to a content marketing strategy.

I had the pleasure of chatting with DAN SHURE about the benefits of top-of-the-funnel content in a marketing strategy, his philosophy on creating content that will rank without outreach, and so much more. 

Want to see exclusive tips on how to get buy-in and access other marketing resources? Sign up for our podcast newsletter!

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• How to get buy in for top-of-the-funnel content

• How top-of-the-funnel content can benefit retargeting

• How to search social and Google Discover to find viable topics

• How to determine the right mix of top, middle, and bottom-funnel keywords

• RUTH BURR REEDY'S CIOCM Episode
• DAN'S DRIFt Post
• EVOLVING SEO POST ON METRICS
• THE EVOLVING SEO PODCAST

Transcription:

Amanda: Hey friends, welcome to Cashing in on Content Marketing. I'm Amanda Milligan, the marketing director of Fractl and every week on the show I interview marketing experts about ways to know the value of your work and get buy in for your strategies. We had a previous episode with Ruth Burr Reedy about how to measure the effectiveness of top of the funnel content and figure out its proper attribution. Today, we're going to talk about some of the other reasons awareness content is so crucial to your strategy, and how to get buy in for it. I am so pleased to be joined today by SEO consultant, Dan Shure, you can find them over at evolvingseo.com, and if you haven't already, I highly recommend subscribing to his podcast Experts on the Wire. Welcome to the show, Dan. 

Dan: Hello, thank you for having m

Amanda: Yes, very excited to chat with you today. And as I mentioned in my conversation with Ruth, and I'll link to that in the show notes of this episode, it was more about the funnel and how you can attribute some of the money you make to some of that top of the funnel content, but you wrote a post for drifts years back, that had a lot of fascinating other ways to show value for top of the funnel content. What I'd like to start with is, you mentioned that not only does top of the funnel content just like immediately convert, but it can actually uplift other content on your site. Can you talk more about that? 

Dan: Yeah, I'd love to. So, I have an example I tell all the time. So, maybe four years ago, I helped a piano website, they sold like $75,000 grand Steinway pianos which is really close to my heart, because I have a degree in piano. But one thing that we did for them was start a blog, they didn't have a blog at all, right? So, we started a blog for them and we did about 10 posts, two or three of which did really, really well and the keywords that drove traffic to those posts from Google, were things like piano apps, or how to choose a piano or things like that, they weren't converting keywords at all, right? They were informational searches. But what we saw happened was, with really no other work direct to their product pages, their product pages started to rank better for the so called money keywords and what I believe is happening there is Google sees, hey, this site is relevant and popular and authoritative for something around the word piano, we're going to drive more authority or more relevance or more rankings to their other piano keywords and pages. So, I sort of think of it like link building, but with content and search queries. And the same way link building can kind of prop up your site and get your rankings moving better, I think blog content that targets topics that literally has the same keyword or same seed keyword as your products themselves, will eventually possibly help those product pages rank better.

Amanda: I love that, I think, what are your tips for people who hear this and they agree, and they've maybe seen something similar, but I'm getting buy in for doing that? Because I know it's harder to show initially, you have the experience of having done it, you know, maybe should they seek out case studies that other people have successfully accomplished this, or what do you think?

Dan: You could start small with one or two pieces of content, right? So, a lot of times when especially a VP of Marketing, or CEO, they hear the term blogging, they immediately assume that means we've got to pump out a post today or like, you know, 10 posts a month or something like that but blogging or informational content can literally mean one article, right? So, I would go to your marketing, you know, your content editor, or manager or CEO, whoever it is that you need to get buy in from, and say, look, I have this exact topic, it'll take me five hours to create this content, I'm happy to do it, you know, maybe a little-- with some extra time or something like that, just to help get it going and prove its point and show that it possibly can bring ROI. So, a test of one or two pieces of content can be a great way to get buy in to actually be allowed to take action. But to your point, there probably are many examples of this that has already happened, I mean, I already just shared one on the podcast, and I probably have dozens of others that, you know, that have happened in that way as well. I think really what we're talking about is just getting buy in to do content and hopefully most companies are doing content anyways. And so, what I see now with most companies is the buy in you're trying to get is maybe over topic choice, or maybe over the ability to spend a little bit longer and more time on search content because it does take like, some people think you can just publish it, write something in three hours and publish it. You know, I got my 500 word posts, took me a couple hours, I wrote it off top my head, why is it not getting it's traffic, right? That's a common thing that you hear so, maybe the buy in is like, hey, we normally spend five hours on a post, can I spend 10 hours and do a really great job, we've got this exact keyword we want to rank for, and then we'll measure it from there.

Amanda: That's really interesting. So, that's the kind of thing you're hearing from your clients, it's not like, we need to get buy in for the overall strategy, most people are bought into that it's, can I spend more time on this specific thing and not just kind of do the bare minimum and expect the same results?

Dan: Usually the buy in is on the strategy, usually, they're already creating content. But with most companies, they need to warm up to the idea of creating content that's derived from a keyword, which still do a lot of people sort of a dirty word, right? It's like, we don't want to do a piece of SEO content. So usually, it's about convincing a company, hey, this post, even though this post isn't going to convert, it's still going to possibly boost your rankings up and I can kind of, we can run a test and show that so, that tends to be more what where I see pushback is, clients don't want to do content that feels like it's based upon a piece of like a keyword but you can go-- you can take any website, plug it in Semrush, and look at the pages that drive the highest amount of traffic. If you go to the pages report, and use those as examples to say, hey, you know, look at Buffers Blog, they are getting really great traffic from this content that's really well done, their audience loves it, it doesn't look spammy at all but they're getting 20,000 visits a month from it, you know. So, search content doesn't need to be spammy and the phrase I use a lot, so a lot of people will say we need to create SEO content and I like to phrase it as create content for a search audience and that reframes it back towards the people that you're trying to reach through your content, and I think that just simple reframing can be very powerful. So, sometimes just little language changes can help get buy in as well.

Amanda: That's really smart. I feel like there's constant debate over how much to focus on keywords or think about it like topics or not think about it at all, and just write what you think your audience needs and it's a hard balance, I think, even for marketers to decide where in this, you know, murky realm, do I need to actually be creating content? 

Dan: Yeah, it can be tricky. I mean, the thing with the keywords versus topics is it's like, it's kind of too vague of an argument, like the post that did really well on the piano site was Best Piano Apps for iPad, that's a keyword but it's a topic, right? So, it's sort of like we're just using the keyword as the gateway entry point into determining what that term should be. And I think, yeah, there's sort of definitely an art and science between choosing a really good keyword that aligns to a good topic. I mean, the main thing about choosing that keyword was it had search volume, right? So, if it was best piano apps for iPad, and it had 10 searches a month, we need to step up one level to maybe just best piano apps because maybe that's higher volume enough, right? So, the keyword is really just the thing that gets you into the topic, but you're still targeting a main keyword that you're trying to rank for, it's just people are terrible at choosing keywords sometimes, right? It's-- the idea is to choose a keyword that actually has volume, where there's enough to say about it on a page. I mean, I think I showed an example years ago, where it was like, something, it was this seven word keyword about like life insurance for people over the age of 60. Like, it was this really long keyword, but it had like 800 searches a month and from a content perspective, there's enough to say on the page. So, it's sort of like, okay, it feels really long, like really long and specific, but hundreds of people are searching for it, you've got enough to talk about that unique, that deserves unique piece of content.

Amanda: And this is even especially important when we talk about top of the funnel content, because you're trying-- the whole point is you're trying to get you know the awareness for your brand, if there's no volume, you might as well just be doing more specific bottom of the funnel, longtail stuff.

Dan: Exactly, yep.

Amanda: So, you talked about how you can think about content, it's almost like that link building benefit of uplifting everything on your site but you've also mentioned how personalized search is actually a component of this. Can you explain that a little? 

Dan: Yeah, I mean, the mechanics of it is, if you search something in Google, and you click on a certain web page, the example I gave in the drift article is, I literally tested this several times, I searched for something SEO related and visited Moz and then I did incognito versus logged in and then I went and searched SEO Software, Moz ranked number two, when I was logged into a Google account where I had visited Moz from prior search and then incognito, they're not even on page one. So, it's just the idea of when you rank for top of funnel search content and you get that click from Google, no matter what that traffic does for you, now, you're what I would call like, in Google's funnel, right? You're in their search history and browsing history and click history. Personal search is a thing, like whether it's localized or what you've clicked on before, keywords you've searched before, or all the data that Google has about you, you're going to-- that's going to change someone's search results, right? So, I think it's a very powerful thing, because I would imagine a second or third or fourth visit from a site I've already seen before, I might be more likely to convert. In fact, Moz had a stat years ago, where they said, like, the optimum amount of touchpoints for them was seven and then that was the best conversion for them in terms of like, lifetime revenue, I might be making that up a little bit but it was seven interactions with the company resulted in the best conversions for them. So, that's kind of what's happening here and like so many people work really hard at ranking number one for a product, right? It's easy to rank number one when they visited your site before, and it's not personalized. So, it's trickier to track with rank trackers, because rank trackers aren't personalized but you might be able to see some of the results from that like in Search Console, where you can get more granular data in there.

Amanda: Yeah, this post that we're referencing is from like 2015 that she wrote, and when you sent it to me and I took a look at it, I was so struck by the fact that I haven't really heard anybody talk about this since, it's been many years and that has to have a big impact on the way that people interact with your brand.

Dan: Yeah, absolutely.

Amanda: And while we're kind of already touching on the topic, what is your method for determining good keywords, aside from the volume for when it comes to top of the funnel? Like, how do you dive into that whole process?

Dan: Yeah, so it's a mix of, is there traffic potential? Is there ranking potential? And then, does that align to business or content or marketing goals? I talked about search volume, but I have a method where you can determine actual traffic potential, my entire philosophy on growth is, let's plan posts by how much traffic they might get, which is sort of like closer to the actual metric that matters. A lot of SEOs will plan content by keywords that have search volume, right? But the piano apps for iPad example, like maybe that exact keyword had a 100 searches a month but if you were to take a current post ranking in Google and put that in Semrush, you might see them getting 1000 visits a month from Google, because every piece of content on the web has dozens or hundreds of keywords in aggregate that it ranks for and gets traffic from and that's where having the idea of a topic or traffic per page really matters versus looking at search volume on a keyword. So, traffic potential is number one, ranking potential is obviously really important because if you can't rank for it, then I don't know, you might as well go to something you can rank for, even though it might be lower volume. And with that, I basically use relevance, authority and quality is the three basic things I might look forward. I taught entire, like courses on this that take hours so, in a nutshell, though, Google's top line thing they optimize for in their search results is relevance, they want to return a result that's relevant, right? So, if you see a keyword that's like piano apps for iPad, and no other posts only have a list for iPad, that's your relevance gap and so many people miss that and there's so many opportunities to create content that's rank worthy, even if you're not the highest authority site. But then, in terms of authority, I'll use Moz's domain authority as a metric, I'll turn on the Moz bar, and I'll look at all the search results. If the site I'm trying to rank and create content for is equal to or has a higher domain authority than most of the results, that's an authority gap, just based upon the link authority of that website, as a really rough gauge, they're likely to be able to outrank other sites there. 

So, like, if you're writing on a website that has a domain authority of 30, but most of the other results have like 70, 80, 90 or higher then there's no chance, most likely no chance you would rank for that. There's some-- like, this is where the art of SEO comes in because as I'm saying that I'm realizing there's some little exceptions to that but in general, it's going to be really, really hard to rank for that. And then, the third thing is quality, if you can create a more recent, more up to date, better quality, better research, more well written, speaks to your audience better, has the right sentiment, like all that stuff, rolls up into being a better quality piece of content, you still might be able to outrank something that's relevant, and maybe a little higher in authority. And then of course, all that stuff means that as you're getting your content out there and more visible, a lot of content will naturally earn links as it's ranking in Google and that's where things I talked about in the drift post is like ranking content is a way to build links passively, without all the nonsense of like outreach and stuff.

Amanda: Yeah, that's like, people talk to me about that as being a catch 22 because like, I know, I need links to try to rank for this post but I know that once I rank for it, I'll be able to build more links, and they get stuck at that initial part where it's like, how do I get this post the lift it needs, when they think that it's very deserving in terms of quality or whatever. 

Dan: Yeah, my entire strategy is, how do we find a topic that will rank without any outreach at all? No outreach, no extra promotion, you literally just hit publish, let Google crawl and index it and the post is relevant, it's higher authority, and its quality and then it surfaces. I mean, it's in a way, it's me just avoiding something I don't like about SEO, it gives me a whole outreach side of things, I just personally, it's not for me. 

Amanda: Yeah, I think you, that's a really great, succinct way of putting the way to look at the SERPs and I think the relevancy gap has always been the most interesting to me, because I think a lot of people, it's easy to fall into the trap of looking at the results and being like, well, this is what Google wants so, I should do something like that, when what you actually need or what the audience really needs does not exist yet and it's just, you kind of having to step yourself into the shoes of a searcher and be like, maybe that's not exactly what they were looking for, it just doesn't exist.

Dan: There was that post somebody to shared the other day, and I retweeted it about intent gaps, I don't know if you saw that but one of the examples of intent gaps, which I had a client just do that works really well is, basically, if somebody searches how to do something, right? I can't give it away. I don't want to give away the exact example, but another example would be that the author actually replied to me, and he said, oh, this is like this other example so, I'll use his example. Let's say somebody Google's how to buy bitcoin stock, right? How to buy bitcoin stock, but you can't actually do that. Well, you would want to come along and create the content, why you can't buy bitcoin stock and that's an intent gap and that would rank. So, I had a client in the precious metal space do a similar piece of content and they ranked number one. Like, we looked at it, we're like, it was the same thing, like everyone else was answering how to do this thing and I had the client actually create why you cannot do that thing and they ranked number one. So, it's that idea of yeah, I mean, you can't just take for granted what Google's ranking and assume that it's all locked in, right? I mean, there's probably-- there could be opportunity for something better. So

Amanda: Yeah, that's fascinating. So, some other things I wanted to touch on, you know, we talked about how it can uplift the other content on your site, but also ranking top of the funnel posts can have additional benefits, one of them, I think you even tweeted about this today was regarding retargeting. So, how have you seen the benefits of that play out?

Dan: Yeah, I did because I literally just had a phone call with a client, where we brought in the person running ads for them, social ads, Google ads, retargeting, etc and like, they literally generated over five figures of revenue 50,000 in revenue on one month of retargeting off of organic search content. You know, building the funnel, building retargeting lists and the look alike audience and the guy running ads is like, he's like, amazing at it so, that's a big variable. But yeah, it's this idea of people will go, oh, we did all this blog content, it's getting us all this traffic, but we're not making any revenue at all. So, like, why are we even doing it? You know, like the real CMO type, or somebody that's going to look at content just only through direct revenue lens, when the person running ads was like, all the content, all the traffic you're generating from all this content is so amazing and high quality, my retargeting is like, totally frictionless, it's working really well and then the revenue speaks to that very highly. So, that's an example of like, when you can break down that silo and match together, you know, the search department-- organic search department with the ad department, hey, how can we sort of collaborate together? That makes the ROI of the top of funnel search content way more powerful.

Amanda: Yeah, that's a really great point for people who are maybe at like the director level for a certain tactic and a company and if they're able to bridge that gap with other departments, and then they can bring in, yeah, the ROI just goes up so much when you are able to do it that way, rather than just getting buy in for yourself and your own team.

Dan: Absolutely.

Amanda: Are there any other, I'm thinking maybe email or any other kind of like, what are these siloed areas of a company that can benefit from this same information?

Dan: Yeah, I mean, I think always-- there's always the natural alignment with search and PPC, but also search and social. So, one thing that I also will do sometimes is say, hey, let's pull up, nowadays Google Discover, right? Is like huge traffic source, for anybody not aware of Google Discover's on the Google app on iPhone or Android and it pushes content to you in a feed based upon past search history, based upon past sites that you've looked and things like that. So, it's not like traditional Google, but it's pushing content you based upon keyword interest that you have. Anyways, it's very similar to Facebook, a Facebook feed, because it's a feed of content based upon topical interests, run by an algorithm. So, you could pull your content that's doing really well and discover the biggest metric there is is click through rate, right? So, that's like, obviously get more traffic through click through rate, but Google Discover will try to predict and surface content that's going to get a high click through rate based upon the image and the headline. And so, obviously, if you pull your content that's doing well in Discover sort by click through rate, there's really great content to give to the social team, you know, or the email team that might get good open rates for the email newsletter or something. So, that's just-- I mean, there's so many ways to collaborate across department, but that's another one that I've been doing a bit more of recently and then you can of course run social ads on the posts that do well in Google Discover. So, yeah.

Amanda: Yeah, that's fantastic. Have you -- I know, you already mentioned some of the issues with the clients that you have getting buy in for things, have anything-- have any of these things or anything else you can think of been really useful in terms of making that case?

Dan: In terms of getting buy in for top of funnel content? 

Amanda: Yeah.

Dan: Yeah. I think showing examples of competitors, you know, is another. In Semrush, you can do the keyword gap report and it shows you that the two circles of overlap, and it just-- the circles just represent how many keywords Semrush as you ranking for. So, it's not really traffic, but it's sort of, if you could find a competitor that like their circle was gigantic, and yours is tiny, I mean, that, I've had with a couple companies, especially big companies, like it's funny, the bigger the company, and the more up the chain you have to go, I find those just real simple diagrams are very impactful. So, like that simple keyword overlap, or, you know, even just screenshots of search results are very motivating sometimes, especially for VPS and stuff. Like, a screenshot of a Google result showing a competitor and a featured snippet, I think can be, you know, really impactful too, that can go a long way.

Amanda: I'm glad you mentioned those, like specific examples, because a lot of people have mentioned, you need to be as straightforward as you can, nobody is going to sit there and like rifle through a 10 page report on why they should approve your budget but if you're able to show them very quickly, and that's probably why that graph is so effective. Like, literally, this shows you how ahead a competitor is, you know, it really does communicate a lot in a very short amount of time.

Dan: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think, you know, there's many other ways that come to mind, but one could always be looking for content that's not all the way up the funnel, but maybe mid funnel, right? So, buyers' guides, or gift guide, yeah. Like years ago, I helped Tim Walter with SEO for just a little while and at the time, this was like 2015, or something, at the time, we did like Gift List for Yoga Teachers or something like that, like something that really targeted their audience, it ranked really well. If you can create a gift list and include your clients or company's product right in the gift list, it's still like middle ground informational/transactional type of search. So, that could be possible as well, right? Especially if you're searching for something you think is transactional, but the search results are blog posts, like a really good example of software searches. I've helped a few like the software websites in the past, like Get Up and a site called Peer Insights inside of Gartner, and a lot of the software companies don't rank for even the searches that have their names in them, right? It's like, lists of the best of software or something like that. So, it's just this idea of a keyword you think's going return product results, but it actually returns content, that's the type of content to maybe start with getting buy in from, if you can't go all the way up the funnel like content that might be close to the conversion point. So

Amanda: I love that suggestion, that makes total sense. Do you have, just because we're talking about, I know, we're talking about top of the funnel in this episode, but do you have a certain recommendation for the mix of how much top middle or bottom? Is this one of those that depends, you'd look for opportunity gaps, that sort of thing, or is there kind of like a mix that you go for? 

Dan: Yeah, I just follow the keywords. I mean, with bottom funnel stuff, it's sort of like your keywords are what they are, if you sell 10 products, you've kind of got 10 general areas of keywords, right? And then, the beauty of top of funnel is, that's where you can really grow traffic because you're not stuck with just those 10 products you're selling so, that's kind of how I kind of look at it, like your product keywords are set, they kind of are what they are. and your top of funnel or even mid funnel keywords have room to expand and grow because you can publish anything you want within the realm of your comfort zone and your strategy. So, I let the keywords kind of dictate that. 

Amanda: Yeah, why not go for the things where there are opportunities rather than trying to like pigeonhole the keywords into your strategy? So, I've been wrapping up these shows Dan, with a more general question, off topic question, which is about creativity. So, I'm asking all the guests in 2021, how you're able to stay creative, you know, we talked about how there's also an art to the SEO outside of the science of it. What are some ways that you're able to kind of like, you know, "think outside the box", to use a cliche, when doing this work? 

Dan: It's -- so much of its pulling from other disciplines. So, I mentioned I'm a musician so, I follow a lot of like music producers on YouTube and when you look at what other people are doing, and other content mediums or other industries, or like YouTube content, it's different than search content, but what can we pull in from that world into what we're doing over here, right? So, it might be the idea of a contest, or like, a lot of what they do is like, have people submit beats to them, and they review them, there's a lot of collaboration that happens, right? So, that's sort of like pulling from other disciplines is really impactful, I think, at staying creative, at a macro level and a micro level, right? So, like, in my own brain that's helping me just personally be creative but it can also help a company broadly, strategically speaking, stay creative, as well so, I think that's important. I think also, something I've thought about a lot lately is just, what are we saying creativity is, right? I think a lot of people think creativity is just this sort of idea of like being able to generate ideas that are like smart or witty or like impactful in some way, but I also think creativity is risk taking, right? Creativity is like the idea of like, what are you willing to do as a company that maybe no one else is doing? So, my client that wanted to publish the, why you can't do this thing, that's a little bit of a risk, because it's actually sort of a, it would be like in the SEO world talking about like, you know, why you can't buy links, or why you can't do this thing that a lot of people think you can do like, why keyword density doesn't matter, right? It's sort of stepping out and going against the grain, right? I just think creativity is about setting limits so, it can be really great exercise to say, okay, how many blog topic ideas can we come up with in 10 minutes, right? Give yourself a time limit, or okay, how many blog topics can we come up with? And give yourself a topic like, a very narrow topic parameter limitation. So, limits I think, are very powerful as well, when it comes to creativity. So

Amanda: I'm glad you mentioned that because I have the exact same experience where if I have to just think to myself, I need to come up with content ideas is debilitating really hard but if I just give myself okay, you're going to come up with digital PR ideas today and that's all you're going to think about and maybe even like this subset of it, it's so much easier, which feels counterintuitive, but absolutely works. 

Dan: Yep, that's great. I mean, I could talk about the creativity thing for hours so, you definitely want to stop me. I think it is fascinating, because I actually don't think it's talked about enough in the SEO for sure. I think it's talked about a bit more in the content marketing space, because it's kind of a necessity, but I don't see as much create -- I feel like there's a little lack of -- there was this creative energy around the SEO space prior to like, three years ago, right? So, like, it's really gone way back to being very technical now, which I think is great. I mean, technical SEO is very, very important but I think the SEO industry at large is kind of focusing on technical, and focusing on like ranking factor, core update penalty things, before that, you used to see a lot of conversation around the most creative link building campaigns, or the most creative content marketing, you know, I don't see as much of that now.

Amanda: That's interesting, and I feel like you wrote an article from Moz about people kind of approaching core updates in a way that you didn't agree with and you see that this is still true to this day and that was many years ago.

Dan: Yeah, I wrote it, it's on my site, it's on Evolving SEO, it's titled something like, Why you can't analyze core updates like it's 2013. Basically, the punchline is, people are like associating your core update with a penalty. It's not a penalty, it's not paying what -- like people are claiming you can "recover" from a core update. I think the idea of recovering from a core update makes no sense whatsoever, but you know, I got in a little argument Barry Schwartz one day on Twitter about that and he's like it's been documented. I'm like, yeah, but is that really a recovery? It's not a recovery, it's just your traffic's going back in the other direction, right? It's not like a recovery from a link penalty, where you submit a manual action, and then you get out of that manual action so, yeah. But that post was on my site, I think I wrote the entire draft in 2018, I think when the core updates came out, and then I just kept seeing people talk about it in ways that I thought made no sense and then I finally published it like a year later. I still think a lot of SEOs don't totally see eye to eye on it, but I still stand by it, 100%. I mean, it's kind of how I see things working so.

Amanda: Yeah, well, I'll include the link in the show notes so people can check it out and we'll see what their take is on the heated debate. Dan, I ask everybody, knowing the objective of the show, who would you recommend to be guests on future episodes?

Dan: Oh, goodness, anybody on my podcast. I actually have a list, a book list, I want to I want to have a good recommendation for you but, I have a Twitter list, I believe if you go to evolvingseo.com/something, or you can go to my Twitter, it's @dan_shure, I have a list, a Twitter list called Experts in the Wire with all my podcast guests, and I think if you haven't had Lizzie Smith, she's great. 

Amanda: I just met her a few days ago so, that's a great suggestion.

Dan: You should also -- do you know, Nadya Khoja from Venngage?

Amanda: Yes. She was on the -- so, this is the second iteration of this podcast, a couple years ago, we had a first version, she was on that show. I should have her back to talk about this specific angle.

Dan: Yeah. Have you had Gisele Navarro? 

Amanda: No. 

Dan: Yeah, from NeoMam, they do all those really huge, viral content marketing campaigns that get picked up in the press and everything, similar to some of the stuff Carrie Jones had done for Fractl when she was on my podcast years ago, those were some of the most popular episodes by the way. Yeah, I think she'd be great for that and I'm just-- I know people are listening going, okay, come on, but I'm just scanning. Tiffany de Silva is great, too, at growth stuff, have you ever had her on the show or? If you want, she's @bellastone on Twitter and I can obviously connect you with people but yeah, you'll be quite a lot of people, but my Twitter list of my past guests would be great to start with, I think. 

Amanda: Yeah, that's great, I didn't know you had that, that would be wonderful. Thank you so much, Dan, for taking the time to come on the show and share your insights on SEO and top of the funnel content, this is very timely for me because I'm working on revamping our blog, Fractl site so, it's been really useful. Thank you so much. 

Dan: Awesome. You're welcome. 

Amanda: If you've listened to this and want even more tips, sign up for our podcast newsletter by going to the podcast page on the Fractl website. And if you've learned anything from this show, we'd love it if you'd subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and leave a review. Finally, if you've any feedback, suggestions, ideas, airfryer brand suggestions, dystopian novel recommendations or anything you'd like to share with me, shoot me an email at amanda@frac.tl, I'm a shameless extrovert who would love to hear from you. Thank you to Sean Kelly for podcast music and editing and to Joao Pereyra for logo design. And thank you, dear listener, I hope you'll join us next time.