How to Track Tough-To-Measure Marketing Tactics [Podcast Episode]

Amanda Milligan
By Amanda Milligan
April 7, 2020

Some of the most effective marketing strategies are sometimes the hardest to get buy-in for. Why? Because they aren’t always intuitively tied to money, which is often (and understandably) leadership’s priority.



Gaetano DiNardi, former VP of Marketing at Sales Hacker and current head of demand generation at cloud communications company Nextiva, talks about how he gets buy-in for and measures efforts like blog content, long-tail content, branded content, and more.


In this episode, you’ll learn:

  • The power of tracking assisted conversions
  • The concept of an inverted content strategy
  • How to explain the value of longtail keyword targeting
  • Ways to build and measure branded content’s impact

Related resources/links:


Amanda: Today, I'm pleased to welcome on the show Gaetano DiNardi. He is the head of Lead Generation at Nextiva, which offers products for businesses to improve their communication and their customer engagement. Welcome to the show Gaetano.

Gaetano: Yeah, Amanda, thank you for having me. I am obviously a fan of you guys, and it's great to be here talking with fellow marketers about marketing stuff. So, I guess we'll have some fun with this.

Amanda: Yeah, definitely. And it's funny because when we were talking before this, or maybe it was in the email, you mentioned that you know, justifying content marketing is something you've dealt with a lot in your career. So, it's good to see how that's kind of played into your experiences.

Gaetano: Yeah. We'll dive into it pretty good today, I'm sure.

Amanda: Yeah. So, one of the things you had mentioned is this philosophy you have where, you know, people say, whether it's a blog or some other type of content, and they ask you like, "Why aren't we getting leads from this?", or "Why aren't we getting business from this blog post or from this endeavor?'. And talk a little bit about like, what your response to that is?

Gaetano: Yeah, this actually was something that I dealt with for the first time, a company called Pipe Drive, when I used to work there, and I was leading the SEO team. And you know, basically what happened was, the competition was going super hard with content marketing, and they had great blog posts, great content. And then we were like, "You know what? We have nothing. So, we need to start doing some of this stuff to fight back.". And we started ranking for some good keywords and building content up, and then what actually happened was, we would get good organic traffic, we would get links and we would start ranking for some pretty decent terms. And then basically what would happen is like my boss said, "Hey, man, you know, I don't know about this content marketing stuff, I think this blog could be kind of a waste of time, maybe we should just, you know, publish like product focused updates on the blog and make it more of like a company information hub, because I think this content marketing is a waste of time.". And I'm like, "Well, why do you think it's a waste of time?". He's like, "Well, where's the leads? Why isn't the blog driving any leads? I don't see any leads coming in from the blog. If it was such a valuable resource, then wouldn't people be signing up for our product from the blog?". And I said, "That's an interesting way to look at it. And, you know, let me ask you a question, though. like, when was the last time that you read a blog article somewhere and then bought something, or signed up for a service? Like, have you ever done that?". And he was, like, "You know, I haven't.". And I was like, "Wow, you're a marketer. You're in this world of B2B tech. Like, if you're not doing it, and why would you think others would do it?". So, that actually opened up, you know, a big can of worms. And then what we actually found out was we were getting leads from the blog, but they weren't sales qualified leads, they were marketing qualified leads, I don't even know if you can call them leads, actually, that may even be not the right term, maybe it's a contact, maybe that's the way that you should label it. That's the way actually, I prefer to label it today. 

But you know, it's things like they would Google like sales, excel Pipeline templates, and they would go to an article on the blog that had, you know, a wealth of selection for those kinds of assets and they would download those templates. And for a lot of potential customers that was like the first wave of discoverability into the brand, and they wanted those assets because they were a useful, valuable resource. And then guess what? Then they're in the system, right? They're a contact, but then it's like they didn't sign up to talk to sales or use the service. But we still made a positive interaction with the brand. So, what then the next step was like, "Alright, now we have to figure out how do we get that top to mid-level interest maybe, and, "funnel it down" to where they may someday want to, you know, trial the product or something like that?". So, that's I guess, where all this started. And I guess where the conversation just led us to right now.

Amanda: Yeah, I think the way that you kind of turned it on its head and had your boss think if you were the one approaching a blog or reading a blog, do you immediately sign up for things? It's a good approach because it's just empathizing with your audience. It's trying to put yourself in their shoes rather than, I think it's easy to just get to think about tactics, and why am I not seeing the numbers without thinking about the people and what behavior should be expected out of these types of things? And you know, I'm sure countless people listening have been in similar situations. So, what I'd love to spend this episode on is kind of talking about some of those tactics that are difficult to measure, and how you've gone about measuring those things. So, you know, previous episode with Ruth, she talked about top of the funnel content, which is kind of what you were just explaining, where people will land on the blog post, they convert by downloading the tool or something, and then there's a contact, right? So, that's certainly one way I like how you're talking about, it's a good brand touch point, it's not necessarily sales qualified, but it's somebody who's now interacting with the brand. So, you talked about something called assisted conversions, can you describe how you define that or what that means and how that plays into this?

Gaetano: Yeah. So, when it comes to assisted conversions, there's obviously a report in Google Analytics, which a lot of marketers use. And what it will tell you is basically what happened before the conversion, where did it come from? And really, this report can be useful because sometimes what you'll see is like, they maybe came from a feature page, and then from there through an internal link, went to the pricing page and maybe converted there, then they went to the thank you and check out. Or it could be the blog, it could be that maybe some comparison content on the blog or maybe a versus, X vs. Y brand content on the blog led to an internal link that went to the pricing page and then converted there. So, that is a pretty good way to do it. But it only works if you have a really good internal linking strategy. So, if you're not really doing great with internal links, that assisted conversions report is probably not going to be super valuable to you, because you don't have the middleman strategy going, and that is one of my favorite strategies for organic growth in organic marketing and SEO. And it's basically this strategy where, for every product that you have, you have basically a corresponding top of funnel or mid funnel asset that gets a lot of organic traffic and you basically rope them in through that asset and then through an internal link or a call to action or something like that, you drive that traffic down further into the site to either a feature page or maybe a product page. And then, that's hopefully where they will maybe convert if you've done a good enough job convincing them that you're the right solution to solve their problem. 

So, the other reason why that's valuable is because a lot of websites don't like linking to product pages, right? It's really hard to build links to product pages and feature pages like, no one's really going to do that. It's not necessarily the most, "link worthy" asset. So, with the middleman strategy, you kind of get around that because you can use really interesting and educational top of funnel, maybe even mid funnel, informational assets that are not super salesy, and it's easier to get links to those and then there you go. Once you do enough of that, you'll have a pretty good marketing flywheel going. And I think over time, you're going to see really good results with that, if you publish really good content and you know what you're doing and it's, you know, product market fit and all that good stuff, audience alignment is there, and so on and so forth. So, that's where it is.

Amanda: Yeah, I'm glad you walked through that because I think that when you have this framework like you're describing, and you're able to rely on the assisted conversion strategy, it gives people a built in way to report on the success of these things. So, they can kind of, upfront prevent these conversations later of like, why are we not getting leads? Or what are we doing this for? Right? Like, it's a good preventative measure.

Gaetano: Yeah, exactly. And the way I like to think of it is kind of like an inverted content strategy. Like, let's say you were starting from scratch, you would probably need to start with bottom of funnel assets first, because, you know, if you just have a bunch of top of funnel assets with nowhere to follow them down to, you know, it's kind of like you're missing a lot of opportunity there. So, I kind of like to think of it as an inverted content strategy, think of like all the bottom funnel things you can be doing, all those bottom funnel terms, build great content there, and then just start working your way up, and I think if you do that, you'll be in pretty good shape.

Amanda: In terms of coming up with these content ideas, you're a fan of utilizing the benefits of the long tail, right? So, not always, the keywords that have massive volume or low competition or ones that are good in that sense, but you think it's valuable to go for the long tail. So, what is your philosophy around that?

Gaetano: Oh, yeah, I love long tail. And I think, you know, basically, the companies that nail long tail and do it well will win in the long run, because basically, I think, Amanda, you know, this, what's happening with Google, like, it's getting more and more and more difficult to rank for those head terms for those commercial terms, because you see, affiliate websites and review websites getting favoritism by Google. And I think that's a result of the way people want to shop today. If they search like, you know, marketing automation software, they don't want to see 10 listings of vendors, reviews and comparison tables and "unbiased sources"; let's just hope they're unbiased or not biased. So, it's just a result of the way people want to buy. So, the way to get around all that is to think about the problems that your potential customers have and then do a lot of that long tail stuff like, Q&A content I think is great, alternatives to content, I think it's great, Versus content, I think is great, checklist, I think do really well, downloadable templates, I think are another one that are awesome. I love FAQ's, FAQ's I think are some of the most powerful content types that you can produce. Pros and cons and advantages and disadvantages of something are really, really good, and I think that is a very underrated content strategy technique. And I think also debunking like common myths and misconceptions is another really good content type that you can play around with in the long tail that will help you win. So, I think those are, just rattling off the top of my brain, some of the top ones that come to mind, and I'm sure there are many others, but I think long tail is the way to go, really.

Amanda: I love that you just provided that list of examples. I've seen, in my own keyword research, I remember when I first started seeing how great of an opportunity versus content was. Like, you had no choice chance of ranking for, you know that one particular thing or the general category, but if you were just comparing things to each other, and writing really killer guides on that, it was lower competition and like a ton of people were searching for it. I was like, "Wow, kind of surprised how many people don't talk about this.". Because it's still really relevant to what you were trying to say in the first place. So, I think you're right that there are a lot of opportunities in this area. So, say you want to do this, somebody's listening, and they're like, "Okay, now I have to make this case to my boss, who is usually into more like, higher volume type of keywords", or maybe they don't know that much about SEO and content in the first place. Like, how do you explain the value of this sort of keyword strategy?

Gaetano: Yeah. So, I'm really lucky that my boss now just gets it. I'm like--

Amanda: Yeah, that's the ideal situation. 

Gaetano: Yeah, that's like the gold like opportunity. It's like, "Yes, I don't have to spend time explaining why this is a good idea.". I'm just like, "Hey, I think we should do this.", he's like, "Yes, it's great, we should do it.", and then they get it. But if you're not as lucky as I am, I think there are some ways to kind of try and figure some of this out. One, may be to rely on keyword metrics or keyword data. And some of these keywords actually do have CPC values associated with them, dollar amounts associated with them. So, one way might be to say, "Look, this keyword has x amount of cost per click value, and therefore, you know, it's commercial intent. And there's likely to be sales that come from it, if we were to rank for this.". That's one way to go about it. Another way to go about it, is by doing these searches and looking at who's bidding on these terms, and if you see your competitors bidding on these terms in Google ads, that's also a sign that this is valuable to go after because they wouldn't be doing it, they wouldn't be spending money on it if it wasn't valuable, right? So, the idea is like, "Okay, let's try to do something organically and get it going for free. Let's just use sweat and not have to pay for it.", right, "Let's pay for it with effort and sweat, other than actual money.". And that's not to say that paying for it is bad, I think, you know, it can be very powerful if you can kind of combine organic success with that paid success, you know, rank highly in organic, and then bid on that same SERP and kind of have that double real estate thing going on, I think can be very powerful to have your brand and both of those positions. But you know, just off the top of my head, those are kind of two ways that I think you may be able to prove some of this stuff to your, you know, boss or your execs, or whatever that, this is worth doing, and that it's valuable.

Amanda: And you mentioned that some companies are ones that you cite as really killing it in this area. Do you have any examples that people can use so that they can get some inspiration?

Gaetano: Oh, yeah, it's blanking on me now, but John-Henry Scherck, a friend of mine, was a content marketing consultant for one company that had the best comparison content I've ever seen, I promise I will follow up with you the link to that content so you can put it in the show notes or something. It's blanking on me right now, but there's one brand that is just unbelievable. And I just am blanking on the name right now. But I will certainly follow up with you and let you know who that is when I remember.

Amanda: Yeah, no, I can absolutely include the link.

Gaetano: Well, I don't if you know any examples. 

Amanda: Well, yeah, that's a good question. I would kind a have to, these things are things that I just like, take for granted, when I'm searching. You know, like, I'll see it and then I should be taking better notes of them to refer back to, but I just like, admire them at the moment and then never return.

Gaetano: Yeah. Exactly. I'm looking at CRM comparison right now in Google, and like, I'm just seeing like G2, Select Hub, Technology Advice, it's kind of the usual offenders there. And I don't know if I can really say that any of this is like super good.

Amanda: Yeah, no, whenever you come up with it, just send it over, and I'll include it in the show notes and people can check it out. But, you know, it's almost like one of those things where you really do take it for granted as a user because when you land on it, it's typically exactly what you're looking for. It's like, it's so well targeted, and I can understand why it would be so effective. So, that sounds great, I'll include that. So, we've talked about a lot of on-site content that's, you know, a little more top of the funnel and things that are more long tail, but what about branded content? And the effort to kind of build your brand authority? How does this play in, and how do you measure the results of those types of efforts that are more middle to bottom of the funnel?

Gaetano: Well, it's a really question. I've never actually worked somewhere where like, the brand was so powerful that all I had to do is like publish something and it will blow up like, I've always had to work like really hard to get content distributed and get content out there and, I basically have to work hard to build audiences and gain respect at every company I've worked at. So, like build an audience and like, make the brand become more reputable, more respected. I think there is a lot of old school ways of doing it. But I kind of have like these modern ways to drive brand awareness checklists, and here's some of the things that I do in order to make that happen. So, for one, it's top of funnel content marketing, right? I think that's kind of a gold standard, you can win Google snippets. And you can get basically free brand advertising by being everywhere in the SERPs for like these very top of funnel assets. And I think like one example that comes to mind is like, HubSpot doing meme generators, right? People criticize that strategy a lot. They're like, "Why is HubSpot doing a meme generator? Who cares? Like, why would anybody who searches that buy their stuff?". And the reality is that they may, but they likely may not, but they're just getting links and they're getting authority, and they're everywhere. 

So, no matter what term you search for in the world of B2B sales marketing, I can almost guarantee you that HubSpot has an ultimate guide on it. And it's probably ranking in the top three positions. So, like, you know, imagine if every other company was able to do that, right. Like, you would eventually over time, have that brand awareness through top of funnel content marketing that HubSpot has, and you wouldn't have to pay any money for it right? You would just invest in that rather than buying the billboard ad or, you know, having your banners and ads everywhere like the San Francisco Airport or JFK, or the New York City subway or some sports arena, right? So, that's one way to do it. Guest posting on websites where your audience consumes content, I still think that's one of the most tried and true and underrated strategies there is like, you know, my school of thought on this is like, stick to the fundamentals as much as you can, and this still works. Like, I still guest posts on HubSpot, because it works.

Amanda: Oh, yeah. I'm the Marketing Director at Fractl, this is what we do, because it's what we do for our clients. Like, we literally do it for ourselves, we write, and we create research and write posts and pitch it to marketing publications like HubSpot. Because you're absolutely right, it does work. 

Gaetano: That's right. In fact, the first time I had ever heard of Fractl, other than my friend John-Henry, telling me about you guys was through Moz and all the great work that you guys do there. You guys do a lot of cool and unique data and data visualization and come up with exclusive insights that only you get, and then you publish it in places like Moz, where marketers like me, enjoy consuming content, and then boom, there you go, I would have never heard of you otherwise, right? So, that's still a great way to drive brand. Brand storytelling on social media, that's still really big specifically for me and for our company in the world of cloud communication. LinkedIn is really, really big, a lot of our potential customers and people who interact with our brand are there, and I do a lot of that almost 2, 3, 4 times a week if I can. Retargeting campaigns on Google Display networks, that is still hugely effective. And I think also, getting interviewed on podcasts is also, which I'm doing right now, ironically, and it's still a great way to get your name out there, to advertise your company a little bit tell your story and not do it in a salesy and corporate faceless way. So, those are some things that come to mind when you talk about driving brand awareness in a modern way.

Amanda: And a lot of these tactics, it sounds like you said, when you don't have a brand already, that has that kind of power that you can leverage, where you just create something, and automatically everybody's reading it, these are ways to kind of leverage other people's authority and be vouched for, right? Like, if you're on a podcast that has an audience, if you're on a publication that people trust, all these different things are ways to kind of say, "Hey, you know, these people trust us in some way.", right? "They're vouching for us by featuring us.". So, you're still building up the brand's authority through these other tactics. I kind of recap that just to say like, is that how you explain it to people as like the reason why to do these types of efforts? Because authority isn't as easy to measure, right? Awareness and authority are like kind of nebulous, and people are like, "Cool, but can we get leads and traffic?", so you know, is that the framework you set it up in, when you say, "Okay, we're going to do this for this reason.".

Gaetano: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I used to lead marketing, a company called Sales Hacker, which is a really well-known B2B publication community, if you will for sales and marketers, and the biggest strategy that we had to basically get our name out there as a scrappy startup and really become like that go to community for B2B sales professionals, was doing co marketing campaigns like webinars, and exclusive research reports, a lot like what you guys do, and also a really cool thing called virtual events, which is essentially like a three-day online like conference. Which is just a bunch of webinars mixed mash together, but like we would organize this with companies like Salesforce and and the American Association of Inside sales professionals, and tofo, they're a research and advisory firm in the sales space, Sastre and many others, right? So, we basically, and, a bunch of them come to mind. So, we basically get like a mastermind of companies together to produce this like mega online event and just everyone would go kind of balls to the wall in promoting it, we would hit our email list, social, we would make videos about it hyping it up, we would run ads, all these ways of driving awareness and signups to this event. And then boom, there you go. Like, you kind of create this sonic boom effect, and you get really well respected by association, like you said, Amanda, because, you know, it's like, "Hey, there's Amanda by herself. Okay, cool. Oh, there's Amanda hanging out with Rand Fishkin. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, she must be someone.". Or, "There's Amanda hanging out with, you know, Brian Dean from backlinko. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, she's someone to know.", right? So, that was kind of the whole thing behind it. And then, you know, long story short, we became so well respected in the world of B2B, we had so much organic traffic and we became such a force to be reckoned with from Community standpoint that the company actually got acquired by another company called Outreach, which is a sales engagement and sales automation platform. And the reason why they acquired us was because they needed a community, it was a software company that had no community, had no top of funnel, had nothing, they were just Product Marketing, bottom of funnel and events. So, they basically acquired a top of funnel engine overnight by doing that, and a community overnight, and I thought it was a genius move. And you know, I'm really thankful for the time that I got to spend there.

Amanda: Yeah, that sounds like it was an incredibly smart decision, and it's cool to hear stories like that. Because, you know, even in my job now, I think about the power of like you said, community and meeting people and just engaging with the greater industry. Yeah, like, first of all, it's enjoyable, just to be connected with everybody, and it's not going to have like an immediate payoff for business, but that's not what it's supposed to do. It's like, over time you start to see what the implications of that are, like these associations you have with people, this trust that you're building, it really does matter in the long-term. And I think some people struggle with that because they think, you know, "What am I getting out of this now?", which is not really the way to approach it at all. But like you said, like you're building these connections and you're building your authority and over time, like people just start looking at your brand completely differently, just or even thinking about it in the first place. So, they might not have been before. That certainly matters.

Gaetano: That's right. Yeah. And the cool thing is, you know, we did see like data behind all of our brand efforts at Sales Hacker kind of coinciding with a lot of the execution that we were doing. So, we did see month over month branded search volume increasing. We did see people starting to search for Sales Hacker webinar as a term, which was awesome. We did see search volume grow behind Sales Hacker conference, right? So, these are all really good signs that damn, like people are actually out there, searching for Sales Hacker blog, really searching for our stuff. So, that was awesome to see as well.

Amanda: Absolutely. And I was going to ask, what do you track but that makes total sense if you're looking at the branded terms, but that they're saying webinar and conference, you know, that's, you can directly track that, that's the ideal situation.

Gaetano: Yeah, exactly. So, you know, there's a lot of ways I think to measure a brand, I think that's one of them. Some of the other things you can maybe look at are like email list growth, or the rate at which people opt into your list, I think that's a pretty good metric. If you're active on YouTube, and you're producing video content, definitely YouTube subscribership growth, I think that's a good one. And I also think referral traffic growth is something to look at as a proxy, right? Like, if you're doing all the right things, and you're getting linked to because you're producing great content, your brand is getting more respected, you may be doing guest posting right, you may be unlocking opportunities for guest posts because your brand is more respected, right? So, they want people from respected brands, contributing to other respected communities and stuff like that. So, like, all these things kind of coming together is, I think a good part of measuring how the organic flywheel is working and the momentum that you're kind of gaining in the market with regards to your brand. 

Amanda: I'm glad you mentioned referral traffic because I feel like that one's not talked about as much, but we use it all the time. It's a good measurement of whether what you're publishing is even engaging to people, if they are clicking through to read, you know, whatever the original source was, and you know, they wanted to-- they're interested in learning more, it's a great way to get a sense of whether your content is really resonating with people at the very least, the bare minimum, it's good for that, aside from just getting traffic. That's really what we're doing it for. 

Gaetano: Because if you're not getting any referral traffic, that means no one's really talking about you, right? Like, you're not getting cited anywhere, and you're not contributing to any other communities. So, that's actually bad if you don't have a lot of referral traffic or if it's declining or if it's just stagnant.

Amanda: Right, agreed. So, a question I tend to wrap these episodes up with is, about people getting buying, in general. And what do you think might be the biggest mistakes that people make when they go to make their case for a content initiative?

Gaetano: You know, I guess what I will say is what you don't want to do is seem frustrated or emotional or upset if your ideas don't get buying, or if there is like friction to the request, right? Because, you know, we do this so much, and we're in the world of SEO and links and content marketing and growth and all this stuff like, we live sleep, breathe it. Unfortunately, your executive team does not, maybe even your CMO does not, who knows. And it may just take some explanation because this stuff is kind of this like, weird, unknown world to a lot of people like, people at my company who are not in marketing, they have no idea what we do. Like, they just have no idea. So, maybe instead of getting frustrated or emotional about it, what you may need to just understand is like, this is foreign, this is like a completely different language to like most people in the world and your executive team only may just see money, may just see what is the outcome, what is the financial outcome of this and they just don't know how it works. So, I think just taking some time to realize this requires deeper explanation, and you may need to show what the path is to financials in some cases, how does links lead to financials. That is the very scary thing to get into, right? But I think that may just be what it takes sometimes, I had to do that; our marketing operations team was like, "Why are we investing all this money into links and time into links? Like, what is links, like, why do we need links? How do we even classify it in the financial process?". Like you know, everything needs a purchase order and then it has to be categorized, they're like, "How do we categorize links? What is it? Is it PR? Is it brand? Does it go under SEO, what?". Like, and just explaining that actually takes some time. So, when you get into a bigger company, these are some of the things that you may face, and it just takes a little bit of patience and understanding that people don't get it, and you got to explain it to them, that's all.

Amanda: That's great. I don't know if you have the answer to this question, because I know it was like a whole team effort when you were making that case about links, how literally, did you do that? Was this like a PowerPoint in a meeting? Like, what did that actually look like the end of the day, when you going to pitch this?

Gaetano: You're going laugh, you're going love this. So, what I thought of was, you know, "If I write about this, they're not going to read it, or they're just going to skim through and they're not going to get it. If I create a deck, same thing, it's going to be too confusing. I'm remote. There's probably a lot of people I'm going have to explain this to, what do I do? I don't think I need to, you know, go all the way to the Arizona office just to explain how this works.". So, what I actually did, was I made a video and I used a tool called Loom to basically do a screen recording of me walking through link building, what it is, how it works, with real examples of like links that we've gotten, and how it's relevant to our actual, like finances like, how did we get links to a page that ranks high that converts leads into sales.

Amanda: I love that. 

Gaetano: Yeah, showed them where we got the links, like what anchor text is, what it means, like, all this like stuff and like, I sent that to our head of finance, our CFO and like she was like, "Wow, I want more videos. Like, I loved it.". She loved it. And then she wanted me to make another video like quickly after that about like how our conversion rate optimization program works, how are we testing, what are we testing, what have been some wins, some losses, all this stuff. So, video is a great way to get your point across in a more humanized way. And also, the good thing about it is, they can forward it to other executives, you don't have to keep repeating the same thing over and over again, they can store it in an archive and refer back to it anytime they want. So, that's my new way of getting complex ideas across to executives and people in the organization who may not get it.

Amanda: Just the fact like you just said that you can refer to it over and over again is amazing. And you basically just used the example of success you've already achieved in your discussion of the philosophy of SEO, that's perfect. I've never heard of somebody doing that. But I'm glad I asked because that's fascinating to me.

Gaetano: Yeah, well, I think it also stems from the fact that we are a unique company, with a unique culture, we're a hybrid of in house contractors and remote and in office, we basically have a pretty open culture about like, you know, none of this stuff really matters in terms of like, must be in Arizona, or you must be where the HQ is or whatever. Like, we just look to acquire the best people who are passionate, committed, who do great work, who have a good heart and who are caring and going to be a great team member. So, it doesn't matter where that person is in the world, as long as they can contribute meaningfully and they're great people, you know, we give them a look. So, I think that's, you know, shout out to Nextiva, and, you know, our C level team for building a great culture.

Amanda: Yeah. And I think, you know, my teams promote at Fractl, and just from my perspective, sometimes when you're not in office, it kind of makes you get creative with communication, you have to try to figure out the best ways to make messages resonate. So, I think this is a great example of that. 

Gaetano: Yeah, that's right.

Amanda: So, the last thing I ask is knowing the objective of the show, which is to help people measure their results, and then communicate those, who do you recommend to be a future guest on the show?

Gaetano: Oh, yeah, that is a really good question. I would recommend my friend Adam Goyette, he is the VP of Marketing at G2, and he's a phenomenal person. You know, he's obviously a great marketer, but he's an all-around good person, and super cool, super chill, super laid back, I'm giving him quite a recommendation here. But he is awesome, and I would give him 10 stars. He's great, you should do it.

Amanda: This is why I love asking people this question because I love to hear about who's just admired in the industry, right? Like, people who are obviously smart, but are also just like good people to talk to and, make great additions to the show. So, thank you. And thank you for taking the time to be on the show Gaetano, I really appreciate it.

Gaetano: Alright, yeah. Thank you for having me. It's been really fun. And you know, I look forward to hearing more great content from you guys and subscribing to more podcast episodes. Thank you.